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Raced a '06 Porsche 911 S Convertible and a '05 Viper on the Garden State Parkway and WON!
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Raced a '06 Porsche 911 S Convertible and a '05 Viper on the Garden State Parkway and WON!
CoolestCorvette873
7/9/2007 11:09:20 AM
Hi I'm new to the Forum, I have a '05 Red Z51 Vette with exaust and ram air intake. I was driving towards Point Pleasant Beach in Jersey on the Garden State when two guys about 25 and 30 years old, one driving a '06 Yellow Porsche 911 S Vert, and the other a '05 Black Dodge SRT-10 Viper pull next to me on a three lane parkway, I'm in the middle lane, the 911 to my left, the Viper to my right. Then the 911 guy smiles and the Viper gives me the thumbs up. We are all going about 70 mph at this point when the Viper beeps his horn three times we punch it, and at about 120 mph I two cars on the 911 and about a half a car on the Viper, then we hit about 150, the 911, out of it slows down and pulls back, now it's just me and the Viper I have about a car on him till we hit about 165-170 mph, wide open, clear roads and now I have about a car and a half, he lets off beeps his horn and pulls back. About a mile down after my hearts pounding and I've slowed down to about 80 mph the two pull up next to me again same lanes and smile and shake their heads with a look of shock that the Corvette American Bruiser just beat thier Porsche Excellence and Viper V10 power. Then they get off two exits later together, they must have been friends. So it was an exciting run for me, and I had a blast giving two Corvette rivals the snub on the road last weekend!
Shift_6
7/9/2007 11:51:56 AM
I love reading stories like this, Nice Job!
Lee Willis
7/9/2007 3:44:47 PM
Wow, I can understand the Porsches aren't very fast (I know, I have one even the newest are just fair game for a C5s), but the Viper should have killed you: they weigh only a bit more and have about 440 RWHP.
CoolestCorvette873
7/9/2007 9:44:04 PM
I know I thought the Viper would beat me, I don't know about kill me, because Vettes are very underestimated they are geared very well to be very fast whether you are running from a dead stop or already moving, they are so light and have such great torque, but I actually have read and seen alot of Vettes beat Vipers, they are extremely powerful, but I had a friend who always had Vettes and bought a Viper and said they arent geared great and there traction at high speeds varies depending on the conditions, and the Vipers are not consistent performers, they also don't run the same unless the conditions are perfect, which is understandable because they are cars built to act as racecars for the track and a Vette is a racecar on the track and road! Plus it's a Dodge, very unreliable too, my friend got rid of it immediately and boguht a new Vette Convertible, for the money they are stylish and nothing performs the way a Vette does for the money! And the new '08 C6's are gonna steal some Euro fans away with there new grade high quality interior, hopefully so everyone can enjoy America's (Favorite) Sports Car!
Lee Willis
7/10/2007 6:18:25 AM
I read what you say, but it runs counter to everything I've read from credible sources (at the moment, being new here, and with no posts except a couple of grand stories of incredible victories in very high speed street races on well-known public highways, you aren't among those yet) and more important, its also counter to everything I've seen and experienced in a lot of racing and contact with many other cars, including many Vipers, stock and modded.
1) A recent model Viper has much more power and torque than a standard c6 or even the new 08 C6 will. HP rules, particularly above 100 mph.
2) Vettes are not underestimated (by whom by the way? I've never heard this characterization). Speaking of gearing, 4th on up is a weakness in them, unless a close-ratio gearset has been installed (very rare unless racing).
3) Unless the conditions are perfect? Really!! Vipers are about the least finicky car to keep tuned on the street -- they make their power with pure cubes, they have fair gearing, a great suspension, and big big tires. They are very fast under just about all conditions. A few, particularly older models, prior to '05, are very tricky to drive fast (but not is a straight line). There is another thread here ("Been challenged by an SRT10 or something like that) where I talk about my experience with various Vipers, etc.
Standard Viper versus standard Vette, both 06s? Nine times out of ten the Viper will put about 5 lengths on the vette in the quarter and be adding a length every two seconds at end. The mods you report (exhaust, which I assume means headers, too, and cold air) add a bit of power but no way will they make up that deficit, whiich is basically 100 HP. Viper vs ZO6? Fairly even with a slight advantage to the vette: it will win about six or seven out of every ten matches by a length or so.
CoolestCorvette873
7/10/2007 10:34:32 AM
Lee Willis, I don't know what your problem is but obviously you dont like to drive fast on raods besides a track, which is fine but some of us enjoy our cars everywhere, and there are people who can't drive their cars for ****, or I know place in Jersey that rents cars like the ones I raced, and the two guys might have rented them for the day and didnt know the cars, I don't know, and my sources come from a guy who has car racing teams, I don't go by magazines because those tests are not real road tests most of the time, they are tracks and I said I thoguht the Viper would beat me, but it didn't I have no reason to lie, go to a dragstrip like Raceway Park believe it or not this is not the first Vette to beat a Viper so keep your negative input to yourself and if you don't like my posts ignore them so I can enjoy this forum instead wasting time writing back to your negative feedback so when you see CoolestCorvette873 leave it alone and I'll be sure not to look at any Lee Willis threads!
chargedvette02
7/10/2007 11:16:58 AM
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoolestCorvette873
Lee Willis, I don't know what your problem is but obviously you dont like to drive fast on raods besides a track, which is fine but some of us enjoy our cars everywhere, and there are people who can't drive their cars for ****, or I know place in Jersey that rents cars like the ones I raced, and the two guys might have rented them for the day and didnt know the cars, I don't know, and my sources come from a guy who has car racing teams, I don't go by magazines because those tests are not real road tests most of the time, they are tracks and I said I thoguht the Viper would beat me, but it didn't I have no reason to lie, go to a dragstrip like Raceway Park believe it or not this is not the first Vette to beat a Viper so keep your negative input to yourself and if you don't like my posts ignore them so I can enjoy this forum instead wasting time writing back to your negative feedback so when you see CoolestCorvette873 leave it alone and I'll be sure not to look at any Lee Willis threads!
Just so you know CoolestCorvette, Lee really knows what hes talking about, I don't think hes picking on you just trying to be logical. Just look through this racing forum and you will see he has gone quite fast on public roads (look at lees top speed thread). He also does it at times where it is safe. I would take what he says to heart for the most part, he has a bad ass vette and basically knows all the ins and outs of these C5s. Anyway good kills and be safe!
CoolestCorvette873
7/10/2007 11:24:08 AM
Honestly this is the first Vette forum I've ever joined, I owned six Corvettes, two 350Z's, and two Porsches, I've joined all other forums and barely ever had a problem, but I'm on this forum for not even a day, I just got engaged and should be happy, but now I'm frustrated with how I'm being treated I know stock for stock Vipers are faster than Vettes for $80k it should be, but not every Viper has a good driver behind the wheel, just like Vettes, I've seen Vettes get crushed on the track by a WRX w/ minor mods and Srt-4's w/ minor mods, but I think we can all agree here that a Vette is far more superior than a WRX or a Neon! LOL! But if anyone, including Lee Willis, has a problem with me being here on thi forum, and Lee Willis you might not but I got the impression that you don't like me and I was pissed so I got testy with you on my replies, but I don't want any problems I understaqnd you guys are here a long time and I would like to be apart of it with no problems! Sound good? Do Lee Willis if you don't have any problems with me lets just end this back and forth bullcrap and all get along.
chargedvette02
7/10/2007 11:25:41 AM
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoolestCorvette873
Honestly this is the first Vette forum I've ever joined, I owned six Corvettes, two 350Z's, and two Porsches, I've joined all other forums and barely ever had a problem, but I'm on this forum for not even a day, I just got engaged and should be happy, but now I'm frustrated with how I'm being treated I know stock for stock Vipers are faster than Vettes for $80k it should be, but not every Viper has a good driver behind the wheel, just like Vettes, I've seen Vettes get crushed on the track by a WRX w/ minor mods and Srt-4's w/ minor mods, but I think we can all agree here that a Vette is far more superior than a WRX or a Neon! LOL! But if anyone, including Lee Willis, has a problem with me being here on thi forum, and Lee Willis you might not but I got the impression that you don't like me and I was pissed so I got testy with you on my replies, but I don't want any problems I understaqnd you guys are here a long time and I would like to be apart of it with no problems! Sound good? Do Lee Willis if you don't have any problems with me lets just end this back and forth bullcrap and all get along.
Sounds good to me.
njscott
7/10/2007 3:13:10 PM
Nice story! I live in Jersey also. I never see cool cars to race! And nobody has provoked me to race yet :-/ so no fun for me. I guess the vette is too intimidating around here.
I hear you about forums being teh suck. Always ends up being a huge pissing contest. Thats why I don't post much.
Lee Willis
7/10/2007 3:29:15 PM
He's entitled to post his stories, but not to be rude when people say "bull!" which is what I'm doing. (I was trying to be polite but he got downright mean on another thread).
Regardless, stories like this very quickly gain a forum member the reputation he or she deserves. I meet lots of kids who act like this and talk like this -- fastest car around, lots of big vitories that sound too good to be true, and generally: a) they get into trouble, soon, b) they lose a lot of money in match races because their cars can live up to their mouth.
chargedvette02
7/10/2007 4:01:49 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
He's entitled to post his stories, but not to be rude when people say "bull!" which is what I'm doing. (I was trying to be polite but he got downright mean on another thread).
Regardless, stories like this very quickly gain a forum member the reputation he or she deserves. I meet lots of kids who act like this and talk like this -- fastest car around, lots of big vitories that sound too good to be true, and generally: a) they get into trouble, soon, b) they lose a lot of money in match races because their cars can live up to their mouth.
I don't think you have ever called me out on one of my stories Lee.
I guess thats a good thing.
Lee Willis
7/10/2007 5:23:39 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: chargedvette02
I don't think you have ever called me out on one of my stories Lee. I guess thats a good thing.
That's because your stories have an element of truth about them, and over time I've come to trust what you post, and to respect you, all the more so because you're one of the younger owners (particularly for a car which could take a Viper, easily) and yet you don't BS and are pretty responsible in your ownership.
For example, you told a great story on 7/9 about the Enzo, etc., just sort of ignoring you, etc. It's a good story with a the ring of truth to it. But the type of person I don't respect would have turned that brief encounter into an epic race down I-70 East in which he was leading the Enzo by a few lengths when it finally topped out at its 202 mph rev limit near Pena Avenue and he left it in the dust. (By the way, a stock Enzo has less margin on your car than 11.1 to about 11.5 seconds in the quarter) that the Viper has on the 'vette (about .5 second). Not suggesting you take you one on,
chargedvette02
7/10/2007 6:01:58 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
quote:
ORIGINAL: chargedvette02
I don't think you have ever called me out on one of my stories Lee. I guess thats a good thing.
That's because your stories have an element of truth about them, and over time I've come to trust what you post, and to respect you, all the more so because you're one of the younger owners (particularly for a car which could take a Viper, easily) and yet you don't BS and are pretty responsible in your ownership.
For example, you told a great story on 7/9 about the Enzo, etc., just sort of ignoring you, etc. It's a good story with a the ring of truth to it. But the type of person I don't respect would have turned that brief encounter into an epic race down I-70 East in which he was leading the Enzo by a few lengths when it finally topped out at its 202 mph rev limit near Pena Avenue and he left it in the dust. (By the way, a stock Enzo has less margin on your car than 11.1 to about 11.5 seconds in the quarter) that the Viper has on the 'vette (about .5 second). Not suggesting you take you one on,
CoolestCorvette873
7/10/2007 7:27:34 PM
Like I said Lee if you have a problem than just say it, I have lost many races just as I am sure you have too, I've toyed with Ferrari's and Labos and lost, but its a Corvette forum, where is the fun in speaking about Vettes losing but clearly thats what you want to hear, everyone has good days, or maybe you havn't, maybe you've never had a bad driver behind the wheel in the car next to you, so call bull if you want, I said I was sorry for being rude, but instead of calling me a child, you be a man and instead of saying no offense which is always almost worse that just coming out and saying I don't believe you, because it is an oximoron, but I made my peace and said I was sorry if you want to continue your "well this is a pissing contest" well than I'm sorry I wont continue and if you want me to leave the forum I'd ahve no problem donig so there are plenty of Vette forums with good guys running them, if your an admin than you should be ashamed of yourself and if your not than honestly just say what you really want would this forum be better without me Lee because if that is how you feel or anyone else than I'll just go, obviously there're some big egos around here who feel they are veterans to a forum oh my god! Its a forum for god sakes this means crap to me because in the end I still have my Vette and I'll always have one regardless, going on my sixth!
chargedvette02
7/10/2007 9:06:16 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoolestCorvette873
Like I said Lee if you have a problem than just say it, I have lost many races just as I am sure you have too, I've toyed with Ferrari's and Labos and lost, but its a Corvette forum, where is the fun in speaking about Vettes losing but clearly thats what you want to hear, everyone has good days, or maybe you havn't, maybe you've never had a bad driver behind the wheel in the car next to you, so call bull if you want, I said I was sorry for being rude, but instead of calling me a child, you be a man and instead of saying no offense which is always almost worse that just coming out and saying I don't believe you, because it is an oximoron, but I made my peace and said I was sorry if you want to continue your "well this is a pissing contest" well than I'm sorry I wont continue and if you want me to leave the forum I'd ahve no problem donig so there are plenty of Vette forums with good guys running them, if your an admin than you should be ashamed of yourself and if your not than honestly just say what you really want would this forum be better without me Lee because if that is how you feel or anyone else than I'll just go, obviously there're some big egos around here who feel they are veterans to a forum oh my god! Its a forum for god sakes this means crap to me because in the end I still have my Vette and I'll always have one regardless, going on my sixth!
Again man don't take it personal. The more members the better and if you have stories to tell....... tell them. Just be prepared for some people to call you out. Lee is not an admin but he may be the most knowledgeable person on these forums. Also i'm not nut swinging, I have just read many posts from him and he does know wtf hes talking about, trust me. Again, don't take it personal and stay around!
Lee Willis
7/11/2007 4:08:21 AM
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoolestCorvette873
Like I said Lee if you have a problem than just say it, . . .
Wow, now you tell me to say it, earlier and in another thread you said I should be quiet. As I said, you're being rude.
I don't have a problem with you posting blarney but when you do you will have to get used to people calling it for what it is. I love this forum for both the decorum and respect members show one another and because ot the near total lack of adolescent, irresponsible street racing BS and bragging (lying) that you see on other forums. So, I won't sit idly by and let BS like this yours pass without comment. You sort of popped onto this forum new and rude, and never tried to fit in. In your first couple of days you post stories about epic (and dangerous) road races in which your Corvette beats three of the big dogs out on the street (Porsche, Viper, Cobra) and all the very latest model, too. Never mind that such cars are far and few between and that most drivers here or anywhere else seldom even see those three out on the street in a month (in five years of cruising and driving I have encountered one Viper on the street in a situation where I could have raced - we didn't partly because he was respnsible like me: I looked over at him and smiled and he shook his head and yelled "Not here, now now, and besides, I've heard about your car!").
But your story is that you managed to run into all three of these street champions in just a few days, and coincidently all three in situations in which you could engage in long, high speed races -- in one case to the rev limit -- on public roads at between two and three times the speed limit, always beating them soundly with a car that just doesn't have the HP or modification that make it a credible story. I don't believe your story: it is just too extreme and unlikely on numerous counts, but I have no respect for anyone who even thinks that type of racing or speed on a public road you don't know is closed and empty is ever tolerable, let alone something to admire. I
CoolestCorvette873
7/12/2007 7:41:41 PM
Well Lee Willis, I'm sorry you feel that way about my stories and I'm sorry you feel that way about racing on the street, I can't argue that it is stupid but I just can't help it, but there is one last thing I must say I never claimed to have raced the three newest top dogs and I would hardly call a Cobra or a Porsche a top dog, both are slower than a Vette in every category and both arenot worth the price oyu pay and both are notorious in headaches when it comes to transmission or electronic problems I know becasue I own five transmission shops! The Cobra I raced eas not the new Shelby Cobra it was the old SVT, and that is all I have to say and as for not running into those kinds of cars all the time, I'm sorry you havn't had that luck, I really am becasue where I live Vettes, Porsches, Blown Stangs, Prowlers, etc... are very popular cars, and I even have seen a couple of Vipers mostly Red, Black, and Silver, only one Blue, and even have managed to see a handful of Ferrari's and Lambos together. So if you don't believe me that is fine, I feel you could've been better about saying it, and I know I could've handled it better, and again I'm sorry so I'd rather put this behind us and just try to get along if that is okay with everyone, I don't want to fight or be a rude jacka$$ to anyone on the forum, so lets all put everything behind us and just take chill pills, sound okay to everyone?
chargedvette02
7/12/2007 10:27:58 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: CoolestCorvette873
Well Lee Willis, I'm sorry you feel that way about my stories and I'm sorry you feel that way about racing on the street, I can't argue that it is stupid but I just can't help it, but there is one last thing I must say I never claimed to have raced the three newest top dogs and I would hardly call a Cobra or a Porsche a top dog, both are slower than a Vette in every category and both arenot worth the price oyu pay and both are notorious in headaches when it comes to transmission or electronic problems I know becasue I own five transmission shops! The Cobra I raced eas not the new Shelby Cobra it was the old SVT, and that is all I have to say and as for not running into those kinds of cars all the time, I'm sorry you havn't had that luck, I really am becasue where I live Vettes, Porsches, Blown Stangs, Prowlers, etc... are very popular cars, and I even have seen a couple of Vipers mostly Red, Black, and Silver, only one Blue, and even have managed to see a handful of Ferrari's and Lambos together. So if you don't believe me that is fine, I feel you could've been better about saying it, and I know I could've handled it better, and again I'm sorry so I'd rather put this behind us and just try to get along if that is okay with everyone, I don't want to fight or be a rude jacka$$ to anyone on the forum, so lets all put everything behind us and just take chill pills, sound okay to everyone?
Actually the new Shelby Cobra with 500 hp isnt really any faster in the 1/4 mile than the 400 hp svt. The svt cobra weighs in at like 3700 lbs and the shelby cobra is in at over 4000 lbs, what a fat pig of a car. Since you beat your buddys svt cobra you would def beat a stock shelby cobra.
Lee Willis
7/13/2007 12:30:24 PM
Actually, his original story was very clear about the cars he claimed he ran and I guessed correctly that it was the Mustang Cobra. I do consider all three -- Viper, Porsche, and Cobra among "the top dogs on the street" (as is the 'vette) even if they are not all the very fastest in every category. But I'm not adolescent enough in my thinking to let what I own cloud my judgement -- vettes' are very fast but not the fastest out there, by far.
Upon looking up some facts, however, do I think that in addition to the Viper, the Porsche actually should have beat a lightly modded C6 -- he claimed he ran a Carrera 2S. According to Road and Track the 4S (147 lb heavier than the 2S) runs the quarter in 12.6 versus 12.8 for a standard C6. R&T's figures are usually slow for any car but their relative times are always very dependable measures of relative performance. I'd expect a 2S coupe to take the C6 off the line but the 200 lb heavier convertible to only hang with it, but both the 2S coupe or convertible to slowly out-accelerate it from 75 on up, and then just walka way from it above 100. One the particularly wrong facts int he original post was that Corvettes are fast due to gearing. Ifn fact they are geared for acceleration in 1st through 3rd and economy on the top three gears. By contrast, Porsches are geared well all the way to the top--they will just reach top speed at rev limit in top gear, meaning that from 100 up they have 4th, 5th and 6th nicely and closely spaced. The result is that C5s and C6s are relative dogs once they get into 4th compared to the either S model.
And you are right, Chargedvette, the Cobra is heavy, and thus not that fast ( a 500 HPcar that can, according to R&T again, only equal the 1/4 mile time of a a standard 400 HP C6. But the GT500 is a very nice car. I drove one at my son's dealership and while it does feel heavy (at least, when driven back to back with Porsche), it had a very well-made, smooth, and precision feel which surprised me, and just great torque. And it was comfortable and roomy. It reminds me of the Chrysler 300s of the mid 50s -- big and powerful and heavy and the ultimate cross country road car, particularly if you planning on traveling at 100+mph speeds for long distances.
chargedvette02
7/13/2007 6:28:55 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
Actually, his original story was very clear about the cars he claimed he ran and I guessed correctly that it was the Mustang Cobra. I do consider all three -- Viper, Porsche, and Cobra among "the top dogs on the street" (as is the 'vette) even if they are not all the very fastest in every category. But I'm not adolescent enough in my thinking to let what I own cloud my judgement -- vettes' are very fast but not the fastest out there, by far.
Upon looking up some facts, however, do I think that in addition to the Viper, the Porsche actually should have beat a lightly modded C6 -- he claimed he ran a Carrera 2S. According to Road and Track the 4S (147 lb heavier than the 2S) runs the quarter in 12.6 versus 12.8 for a standard C6. R&T's figures are usually slow for any car but their relative times are always very dependable measures of relative performance. I'd expect a 2S coupe to take the C6 off the line but the 200 lb heavier convertible to only hang with it, but both the 2S coupe or convertible to slowly out-accelerate it from 75 on up, and then just walka way from it above 100. One the particularly wrong facts int he original post was that Corvettes are fast due to gearing. Ifn fact they are geared for acceleration in 1st through 3rd and economy on the top three gears. By contrast, Porsches are geared well all the way to the top--they will just reach top speed at rev limit in top gear, meaning that from 100 up they have 4th, 5th and 6th nicely and closely spaced. The result is that C5s and C6s are relative dogs once they get into 4th compared to the either S model.
And you are right, Chargedvette, the Cobra is heavy, and thus not that fast ( a 500 HPcar that can, according to R&T again, only equal the 1/4 mile time of a a standard 400 HP C6. But the GT500 is a very nice car. I drove one at my son's dealership and while it does feel heavy (at least, when driven back to back with Porsche), it had a very well-made, smooth, and precision feel which surprised me, and just great torque. And it was comfortable and roomy. It reminds me of the Chrysler 300s of the mid 50s -- big and powerful and heavy and the ultimate cross country road car, particularly if you planning on traveling at 100+mph speeds for long distances.
I wasnt saying they arent nice, I was just saying they are kinda slow for the numbers they are putting out.
Lee Willis
7/13/2007 7:00:59 PM
Oh, I agree with you . . . . GT 500s are heavy, and big, but my point is that they are fairly nice cars. It's even worse with car I'm thinking about, the Bentley Continental GT. It weighs 5200 lbs!! But it has a 552 HP twin turbo engine and so it moves damn good for its weight -- almost as good as the GT500. I guess my point is that there is more to a car than pure speed (otherwise I'd drive a Lotus), and at least at my age, ride, comfort, and interior style matter a lot.
I'm not so far gone that you'll see me in a Buick anytime soon, but a 5200 lb. Bentley -- maybe in time . . .
chargedvette02
7/13/2007 7:06:48 PM
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lee Willis
Oh, I agree with you . . . . GT 500s are heavy, and big, but my point is that they are fairly nice cars. It's even worse with car I'm thinking about, the Bentley Continental GT. It weighs 5200 lbs!! But it has a 552 HP twin turbo engine and so it moves damn good for its weight -- almost as good as the GT500. I guess my point is that there is more to a car than pure speed (otherwise I'd drive a Lotus), and at least at my age, ride, comfort, and interior style matter a lot.
I'm not so far gone that you'll see me in a Buick anytime soon, but a 5200 lb. Bentley -- maybe in time . . .
I would love to see a pic of you in a Bentley! That would be bad ass and I could say I talk to someone that owns a Bentley.
So are you saying you don't like Lotuses or you do?
I would love to own one just because of how they stand out. One of the local bar owners not too far from where I live has a lotus (actually him and his buddy have one) and they definitely stand out when you see them on the road. But he said that it is not a comfort car, I believe his exact words where "you can ride over a dime and tell what year it is."
Lee Willis
7/14/2007 6:04:21 AM
Oh, I like Lotus alot. I would not want one as a daily driver, but as a fun car and something just to own and play with it would be cool. My problem is I don't have anywhere to keep all the cars I'd like to own (there is no limit) and I have a wife who believes there are other things in life besides cars, such as new kitchens and week long vacation trips on the American Orient Express, etc.
I am a big fan of the Lotus philosophy, which has been pretty consistent all the way back to Colin Chapman (I actual met and shook hands with him, oh, must have been 40 years ago), which always has been: keep it light and small and use as near-perfect suspension geometry as you can. I don't particularly like the styling of the current models, however. My favorite street Lotus is the Elan, least favorite the Europa, and I'd love to have a red Elan S with original hardtop in good shape, but again, where would I keep it?
C3 Starship
7/14/2007 10:11:18 AM
Right here Lee
! I'll empty out my storage container and we'll slip 'er inside.
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