Engine Swap
#1
08-06-2011, 11:33 PM
Engine Swap
My daughter has a 78 with an ancient engine. We have installed steer-oids and a high performance radiator with integrated electric fans. We are now looking at a newer engine. The engine is in a 1997 Blazer and I was wondering if it will work in her vette. Does anyone have any thoughts on this idea, or is there a better engine or way to upgrade? Thanks for your insights....
Peace in Christ...
Leo
Peace in Christ...
Leo
#2
08-07-2011, 12:40 AM
Welcome to the site. I'm not sure about the swap but I would think it should work. You would certainly have to change the peripherals. Perhaps someone with more experience in this area will jump in.
We need some pictures of your vette as well.
Cheers
We need some pictures of your vette as well.
Cheers
#3
08-07-2011, 11:35 AM
Having a little experience in this area,I would recommend you not use that particular generation of motor. Granted anything CAN be made to fit anything but the changeover aspect of this swap is really major. The transmission flange is the same and the motor mount bosses on the the block may be the same,other than that NOTHING is the same! You will have really major issues with the wiring,the fuel system is totally different and no fuel system parts off the vette will work. The manifolds (intake or exhaust) won't fit,the fuel lines won't work and the vette has no wiring for all the controls etc on the 97 motor.
In your place I would go to Chevy performance,Jegs, or Summit and buy a crate motor Gen 1 the kind with the two piece rear main seal. All your parts will directly cross over and it will be a simple unbolt-bolt operation,your wiring loom will remain unmolested as will the fuel lines,vacuum lines and a myriad of other tiny details.
The initial investment may be more,I'm guessing the Blazer motor is very reasonable,even free. But in the end the manifolds,fuel pump,possibly a fuel tank,all the fuel lines,a wiring loom and maybe 100 hours of labor to hook it all up will more than offset the initial difference in investment.
Also you will have to have a custom exhaust system built,major changes in the piping to the AC system,on and on.
If you are a VERY competent automotive technician and have maybe six months with nothing else to do,you might pull it off!
Have I done this exact swap? No. But I did put a 93 LT1 in my 79,I think I have receipts for close to $8000 worth of stuff and I built much of the crossover stuff like the accessory drive system and all the brackets to mount the alternator,AC and power steering pumps myself. The accessories as mounted on the engine will not fit in the vette engine bay,the upper a-arms get in the way!
THERE IS AN EASIER WAY!!!!!
In your place I would go to Chevy performance,Jegs, or Summit and buy a crate motor Gen 1 the kind with the two piece rear main seal. All your parts will directly cross over and it will be a simple unbolt-bolt operation,your wiring loom will remain unmolested as will the fuel lines,vacuum lines and a myriad of other tiny details.
The initial investment may be more,I'm guessing the Blazer motor is very reasonable,even free. But in the end the manifolds,fuel pump,possibly a fuel tank,all the fuel lines,a wiring loom and maybe 100 hours of labor to hook it all up will more than offset the initial difference in investment.
Also you will have to have a custom exhaust system built,major changes in the piping to the AC system,on and on.
If you are a VERY competent automotive technician and have maybe six months with nothing else to do,you might pull it off!
Have I done this exact swap? No. But I did put a 93 LT1 in my 79,I think I have receipts for close to $8000 worth of stuff and I built much of the crossover stuff like the accessory drive system and all the brackets to mount the alternator,AC and power steering pumps myself. The accessories as mounted on the engine will not fit in the vette engine bay,the upper a-arms get in the way!
THERE IS AN EASIER WAY!!!!!
#4
08-07-2011, 12:33 PM
Wow.... While nothing is ever easy, this is more difficult than I imagined. Note to self.... Forget the engine swap... Focus on a better way... OK.. If the engine swap with the blazer is not a good idea, is there a kit or system available to retrofit a 78 engine to a serpantine belt system? Is there a better way (or place) to put the power steering pump? It is almost impossible to check the fluid level or even add fluid when necessary. Thanks for your help folks....
Peace in Christ...
Leo
Peace in Christ...
Leo
#5
08-07-2011, 04:57 PM
Leo,
I see serpentine setups for sale in the hot rod catalogs like Jeg's and Summit,they are quite expensive and I'm a little doubtful that they would work in the '78. Things are rather tight in there,that's why the ps is so difficult to check. On the my '79(with the 93 LT1) you can barely SEE the ps pump but it's remote reservoir,so it's easy to check since the reservoir is out where it's accessible. I don't think they make remote reservoir pumps that will bolt onto the 78,but they might?
The problem with the vettes is the low hood line,they had to push the engine way down in the frame to keep things low. So all the accessories are either high on the engine or below those that are high on the engine hence the ps pump that's difficult to get to.
I've done three or four engine swaps and studied many others and it is rare indeed that when it was over there were not some negatives. Almost all the good ones involve putting a Chevy smallblock in a chassis that originally had a larger motor. I put a Chevy 327 in a 55 Studebaker and that was pretty positive all the way around. BUT in the end it was a HOT ROD,no power steering,no power brakes,I was much younger then and didn't need AC,but it was fast and a lot of fun to drive! I put a 327 in a 92 S-10 pickup,no way to put AC on it! The only thing that was better in the end was the power to weight ratio. It was not much fun to drive 100 miles to the next town,the exhaust system was so tight in there that a lot of heat transferred into the cab and NO AC!
Essentially what I have learned in a close to 40 years of Hot Rodding is a lot of respect for the engineers in Detroit. Maybe they are not smarter than I am,but they have access to a lot more possibilities,they can move stuff anywhere they want it and add stuff because all they have to do is draw it and it will happen! You and I are 'way more limited in our options to move stuff around. I believe that if there was a better place to put something the odds are maybe 3 to1 that if it would have worked there the engineers would have put it there in the first place. The gremlin here is cost but if it cost too much for the engineer to put it there how do think it's gonna work for you?
You didn't mention that the 78 was an Anniversary or a Pace car,so you're not messing with a collector car,so have some fun! You already mentioned Steeroids,did you try that without power,quite a few have and have been ok with it. I put a 200-4R transmission in my 79,it's a bolt-in in place of the turbo 350 and gives you the overdrive to drop the rpm at criuse. Then you will need to re-cam the engine so it is efficient at the lower rpm,I put an overdrive(700R4) in my 76 GMC pickup and it HURT the gas milage! The engine(a slightly cammed up 383) simply wasn't running well at the rpm it was at on the highway,put the Turbo 350 back in and gained almost 5mpg. A very wise person I know once made the statement "Everything affects everything" When you start messing with Detroit Iron,do your homework and try to put together a package of compatible aiding each other parts.
I'm guessing you are old enough to have heard"Free advice is worth what you paid for it". When someone advises you,all they are telling you is what they might do in your shoes.
I have a saying"Age does not imply wisdom!" But once in awhile one of us old guys paid enough attention to the mistakes he made and retains a few of the painful memories thereby acquired that he may have something useful to offer?
It's good to meet another servant of the Lord! Good Luck!
Ron
I see serpentine setups for sale in the hot rod catalogs like Jeg's and Summit,they are quite expensive and I'm a little doubtful that they would work in the '78. Things are rather tight in there,that's why the ps is so difficult to check. On the my '79(with the 93 LT1) you can barely SEE the ps pump but it's remote reservoir,so it's easy to check since the reservoir is out where it's accessible. I don't think they make remote reservoir pumps that will bolt onto the 78,but they might?
The problem with the vettes is the low hood line,they had to push the engine way down in the frame to keep things low. So all the accessories are either high on the engine or below those that are high on the engine hence the ps pump that's difficult to get to.
I've done three or four engine swaps and studied many others and it is rare indeed that when it was over there were not some negatives. Almost all the good ones involve putting a Chevy smallblock in a chassis that originally had a larger motor. I put a Chevy 327 in a 55 Studebaker and that was pretty positive all the way around. BUT in the end it was a HOT ROD,no power steering,no power brakes,I was much younger then and didn't need AC,but it was fast and a lot of fun to drive! I put a 327 in a 92 S-10 pickup,no way to put AC on it! The only thing that was better in the end was the power to weight ratio. It was not much fun to drive 100 miles to the next town,the exhaust system was so tight in there that a lot of heat transferred into the cab and NO AC!
Essentially what I have learned in a close to 40 years of Hot Rodding is a lot of respect for the engineers in Detroit. Maybe they are not smarter than I am,but they have access to a lot more possibilities,they can move stuff anywhere they want it and add stuff because all they have to do is draw it and it will happen! You and I are 'way more limited in our options to move stuff around. I believe that if there was a better place to put something the odds are maybe 3 to1 that if it would have worked there the engineers would have put it there in the first place. The gremlin here is cost but if it cost too much for the engineer to put it there how do think it's gonna work for you?
You didn't mention that the 78 was an Anniversary or a Pace car,so you're not messing with a collector car,so have some fun! You already mentioned Steeroids,did you try that without power,quite a few have and have been ok with it. I put a 200-4R transmission in my 79,it's a bolt-in in place of the turbo 350 and gives you the overdrive to drop the rpm at criuse. Then you will need to re-cam the engine so it is efficient at the lower rpm,I put an overdrive(700R4) in my 76 GMC pickup and it HURT the gas milage! The engine(a slightly cammed up 383) simply wasn't running well at the rpm it was at on the highway,put the Turbo 350 back in and gained almost 5mpg. A very wise person I know once made the statement "Everything affects everything" When you start messing with Detroit Iron,do your homework and try to put together a package of compatible aiding each other parts.
I'm guessing you are old enough to have heard"Free advice is worth what you paid for it". When someone advises you,all they are telling you is what they might do in your shoes.
I have a saying"Age does not imply wisdom!" But once in awhile one of us old guys paid enough attention to the mistakes he made and retains a few of the painful memories thereby acquired that he may have something useful to offer?
It's good to meet another servant of the Lord! Good Luck!
Ron
#6
08-07-2011, 05:52 PM
Just finished putting a 05 6.0 L in my 73. Ain't no way i would run an old gen small block. If your not mechanily talented. Take out the old motor take it to a good machine-speed shop. Tell them what you want pick it up and reinstall.
#7
08-10-2011, 12:29 AM
I think I will study this issue for a bit and see if I can fabricate some sort of "front engine plate" that will hold the AC compressor, PS Pump, and Alternator in alignment so I can use the serpantine system. By removing the engine fan and installing the integrated fan/radiator system, I now have a great deal of space between the radiator and the front of the engine (9 inches on top and 14 inches on bottom). I wonder if I can turn the AC, PS, and Altenator around so that their pullys face the engine. I could probably build a plate or bracket that would allow these devices to be mounted free of the engine and powerd with a serpantine belt. Does anyone know if this has been tried before? Please advise... and thanks for the info...
Peace in Christ....
Leo
Peace in Christ....
Leo
Last edited by Leo Lennemann; 08-10-2011 at 12:31 AM. Reason: Mispelled words
#8
08-10-2011, 10:14 AM
Probably won't work,to make everything work,motor mounts are a alittle bit flexible,so the motor moves around some in the car. I would think the belt would not stay on the pulleys if the accessories were mounted to the frame.
What I did was to make a plate that fit the mounting holes on the engine,then I made a plate that mounted the accessories in a location that would let them fit in the engine bay. I put the pulley on the crankshaft extended out to clear everything and then connected the plates with spacers that caused everything to line up. If I recall accurately the spacers were about 1 3/8"
I used the '79 alternator,the LT1 power steering pump.I'm not sure of the exact year of the AC compressor,it's a centrifugal type that looks a lot like the one on my 84. The tensioner pulley may have been off the LT1 or a 90 pickup that I had serpentine parts from after the S-10 swap.
There is an intake manifold available to let you put a carb on the LS engine,so all you're left with is exhaust and ignition. There probably is a stand-alone loom out there that will talk to the ignition enough to let it function without the myriad of inputs the ECM needs for it to do that.
I don't like headers because of the increased heat they release in the engine bay,but possibly if you wrap them it would be livable. You might also tour the salvage yards and see if you could find a set of stock manifolds that will allow an exhaust hookup that won't be too difficult.
If you pull this off, you will provide hope for future generations! Write everything down and take lots of pictures! You could write a book on how to do this swap and the royalties will help pay for the swap!
Good Luck!
Prayers from here!
Ron
What I did was to make a plate that fit the mounting holes on the engine,then I made a plate that mounted the accessories in a location that would let them fit in the engine bay. I put the pulley on the crankshaft extended out to clear everything and then connected the plates with spacers that caused everything to line up. If I recall accurately the spacers were about 1 3/8"
I used the '79 alternator,the LT1 power steering pump.I'm not sure of the exact year of the AC compressor,it's a centrifugal type that looks a lot like the one on my 84. The tensioner pulley may have been off the LT1 or a 90 pickup that I had serpentine parts from after the S-10 swap.
There is an intake manifold available to let you put a carb on the LS engine,so all you're left with is exhaust and ignition. There probably is a stand-alone loom out there that will talk to the ignition enough to let it function without the myriad of inputs the ECM needs for it to do that.
I don't like headers because of the increased heat they release in the engine bay,but possibly if you wrap them it would be livable. You might also tour the salvage yards and see if you could find a set of stock manifolds that will allow an exhaust hookup that won't be too difficult.
If you pull this off, you will provide hope for future generations! Write everything down and take lots of pictures! You could write a book on how to do this swap and the royalties will help pay for the swap!
Good Luck!
Prayers from here!
Ron
#9
08-10-2011, 03:16 PM
Leo; Just did a search on cuda367's swap. He started it on 4/6/09(2yrs,4mos. ago) and he is an auto shop teacher!
I realize I don't know much about stuff,being 70 yrs old, I had reached the stage where I knew there were things I didn't know,then I got on the internet! It seems like no matter what I know(or think I know)there are hundreds,if not thousands, of folks who know way more than I do! I will freely admit that I'm not exactly cutting edge when it comes to all the electronic gadgetry that makes our modern cars function,so personal preferences have me staying away from anything that is controlled by more than 1 computer.
I'm guessing at your level of experience and knowledge by the questions you've asked and I am almost to the point of begging you to not try this!
I am an old fuddy-duddy stickin' his nose in where it doesn't belong,please forgive me if I've offended you by anything I said.
In Christ
Ron
I realize I don't know much about stuff,being 70 yrs old, I had reached the stage where I knew there were things I didn't know,then I got on the internet! It seems like no matter what I know(or think I know)there are hundreds,if not thousands, of folks who know way more than I do! I will freely admit that I'm not exactly cutting edge when it comes to all the electronic gadgetry that makes our modern cars function,so personal preferences have me staying away from anything that is controlled by more than 1 computer.
I'm guessing at your level of experience and knowledge by the questions you've asked and I am almost to the point of begging you to not try this!
I am an old fuddy-duddy stickin' his nose in where it doesn't belong,please forgive me if I've offended you by anything I said.
In Christ
Ron
#10
08-14-2011, 11:19 AM
Another point about overhauling your existing engine is you have to be careful that you don't wind up putting more money in it than a new, w/ warranty crate engine costs. It is a lot easier to do than you think. Don't ask me how I know. 