That's a good point. But do you really think the US would have been overrun?


Here you're makin' a point for isolationism - at least in one respect....

But havin' an action overseas UNDER WHAT GUISE??? Protection against terrorism? I don't believe many Americans worry each day about dying. Much less dying at the hands of a terrorist. Yeah, it happened once.I bet more worry about a car wreck, tho', orabout gettin' the bills paid, etc., ...

And what about global [free] trade? Surely you're not for free trade?

 

" illegal immigrants"is the key phrase here. I don't have a prob with "legal immigrants", those who contribute and not cause a drain on our sytem andway of life.

No, I'm not for "Free" trade, why should we haveto pay to export and other countries import at low or no cost? I've been against NAFTA and simular policies from the start.

"But havin' an action overseas UNDER WHAT GUISE???"

I'm still building my responce. I do have a strong view on this issue.
You may be surprised or maybe even enlightened. I already touched on it.
Yes, Hitler wanted to overrun North America, and at a time when we would have not been prepared. Our Military preparedness did not really kick into gear until we were already involved in Europe. D-Day was not the first action of our forcesin Europe during WWII.

 

The guise is an anti-terrorism action. The only thing keeping it afloat is the 5threnewal last week of emergency spending legislation for this action.

EMERGENCY???How long does an emergency last??? Funding for this boondoggle would never get through the regular federal budget. Know why? Cause there's no objective. No obtainable objective. NONE. The elimination of terrorists will never, ever go away. Never. There are just as many incidents now as there were before the action began. London train. Spain train. Bali disco. etc., ...

You have no problem with legal immigrants, huh? You know the hijackers were legal.

Isolate. We can see everything we need to see from surveillance sattelites. Everything.

A legitimate action would be to let a nation, led by the government of that nation, become a genuine threat. THEN, allow armed forces to go in, and engage without restraint. Policing? Like cops on patrol? What a waste.

 

"You have no problem with legal immigrants, huh? You know the hijackers were legal."

I make adistinction between "immigrants" and "visitors". The highjackers were not in the process of becomming citizens, therefore they were not "immigrants", they were here on visas.
My great G-father was an immigrant. He went through the propper processes. We have become way too slack in our enforcement of our immigration laws. The laws are still on the books, they're just not enforced.

And to those who say that these "illegals" are law biding persons,..........
THEY BROKE THE LAW BY COMMING HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE. DEPORT THE WHOLE LOT.
I'm sick and tired of giving handouts to these law breakers. They're nothing but free loaders.
Let our military deal with the World issues outside the US. The National Guard should be here at home, protecting our borders. Hence the name, "National Guard".

If the estimated 20 million illegals, were to join together in their own countries, they could make a difference in their own countries government and then wouldn'tfeel a needto leave.Think about it, 20 million people moving on their own government to invoke change. Rebellion?, you bet cha!

 

Something for the sub topic of illegal immigrants.Illegals are nothing more than Criminal intruders.
As for the "war" ....right, wrong or indifferent,...The reason for being there is irrelevant at this point, we're there now and need to finish what we started before we leave.
Sorry for the intrusion into your discussion. Cheers


I have no evidence this is legit, but an interesting piece if true.

Here is a "REAL INTERVIEW" with an illegal Mexican at a protest march in Texas.


Trying to reason with an Illegal Mexican:


This is good! Below is a good example of a discussion with a master of circular logic. Don't be logical, don't respect the truth or your adversary, just say what you think makes a new case when the previous case gets too difficult to defend. On the streets of downtown Houston, May 1, 2006.

Jim Moore reporting for a Houston TV station:

Jim: Juan, I see that you and thousands of other protesters are marching in the streets to demonstrate for your cause. Exactly what is your cause and what do you expect to accomplish by this protest?

Juan: We want our rights!. We will show you how powerful we are. We will bring Houston to its knees!

Jim: What rights?

Juan: Our right to live here...legally. Our right to get all the benefits you get.

Jim: When did you come to the United States?

Juan: Six years ago. I crossed over the border at night with seven other friends.

Jim: Why did you come?

Juan: For work. I can earn as much in a month as I could in a year in Mexico. Besides, I get free health care, our Mexican children can go to school free, if I lose my job I will get Welfare, and someday I will have the Social Security. Nothing like that in Mexico!

Jim: Did you feel badly about breaking our immigration laws when you came?

Juan: No! Why should I feel bad? I have a right to be here. I have a right to amnesty. I paid lots of money for my Social Security and Green Cards.

Jim: How did you acquire those documents?

Juan: From a guy in Dallas. He charged me a lot of money too.

Jim: Did you know that those documents were forged?

Juan: It is of no matter. I have a right to be here and work.

Jim: What is the "right" you speak of?

Juan: The right of all Aliens. It is found in your Constitution. Read it!

Jim: I have read it, but I do not remember it saying anything about rights for Aliens.

Juan: It is in that part where it says that all men have Alien rights, like the right to pursue happiness. I wasn't happy in Mexico, so I came here.

Jim: I think you are referring to the declaration of Independence and that document speaks to unalienable rights .. Not Alien rights.

Juan: Whatever.

Jim: Since you are demanding to become an American citizen, why then are you carrying a Mexican Flag?

Juan: Because I am Mexican.

Jim: But you said you want to be given amnesty ... to become a US citizen.

Juan: No. This is not what we want. This is our country, a part of Mexico that you Gringos stole from us. We want it returned to its rightful owner.

Jim: Juan, you are standing in Texas. After wining the war with Mexico, Texas became a Republic, and later Texans voted to join the USA. It was not stolen from Mexico.

Juan: That is a Gringo lie. Texas was stolen. So was California, New Mexico and Arizona. It is just like all the other stuff you Gringos steal, like oil and babies. You are a country of thieves.

Jim: Babies? You think we steal babies?


Juan: Sure. Like from Korea and Vietnam and China. I see them all over the place. You let all these foreigners in, but try to keep us Mexicans out. How is this fair?

Jim: So, you really don't want to become an American citizen then.

Juan: I just want my rights! Everyone has a right to live, work, and speak their native language wherever and whenever they please. That's another thing we demand. All signs and official documents should be in Spanish . Teachers must teach in Spanish. Soon, more people here in Houston will speak Spanish than English. It is our right!

Jim: If I were to cross over the border into Mexico without proper documentation, what rights would I have there?

Juan: None. You would probably go to jail, but that's different.

Jim: How is it different? You said everyone has the right to live wherever they please.

Juan: You Gringos are a bunch of land grabbing thieves. Now you want Mexico too? Mexico has its rights. You Gringos have no rights in Mexico. Why would you want to go there anyway? There is no free medical service, schools, or welfare there for foreigners such as you. You cannot even own land in my country. Stay in the country of your birth.

Jim: I can see that there is no way that we can agree on this issue. Thank you for your comments.

Juan: Viva Mexico!

You will not see this heart-stopping photo on the front page of the NY Times or on the lead story of the major news networks. The protesters put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High School in California.


I predict this stunt will be the nail in the coffin of any guest-worker/amnesty plan on the table in Washington. The image of the American flag subsumed to another and turned upside down on American soil is already spreading on Internet forums and via e-mail.


Pass this along to every American citizen in your address books and to every representative in the state and federal government. If you choose to remain uninvolved, do not be amazed when you no longer have a nation to call your own nor anything you have worked for left since it will be "redistributed" to the activists while you are so peacefully staying out of the "fray". Check history, it is full of nations/empires that disappeared when its citizens no longer held their core beliefs and values. One person CAN make a difference. One plus one plus one plus one plus one plus one........


The battle for our secure borders and immigration laws that actually mean something, however, hasn't even begun.

If this ticks YOU off...PASS IT ON!

 

Great post Bro. [sm=icon_rock.gif]
You are in no way invading the discussion here. Anyone is welcome to join in and state their views.

Like cwb stated, he, and I agree, hate "fence sitters". [:@]

In the words of Arron Tippin, "You've got ta stand for somethin', or you'll fall for anything".

 

The immigrant problem in my opinion is less a concern than globalization issues. Latino immigrants are hard workers. I have a problem with resources that are made available to them, and allotments of tax dollars to cater to them - language labels, signs, etc., but I see enough of them working hard to marginally offset my tax 'loss'.

The war, as I stated before, has no objective. It can't be 'won'. Victory has no definition over in that place.

 

Please clarify this statement for me.
"The immigrant problem in my opinion is less a concern than globalization issues. Latino immigrants are hard workers."

I hope you mean the legal ones.
If not, let's call them what they are, "Illegal Immigrants". There is a big difference.

Granted, most "immigrants" are hard workers.

"Illegal immigrants" are law breakers from the start. Laws are on the books that state this to be so. Fact is fact, if you break the law, you break the law. How can I expect someonewhobreaks a law to not be guilty of a crime. I can't!
Laws have been put in place, due to the fact that the majority of people agreed that something was just plain wrong. If your car doesn't pass a smog test that may be required by law, you are technically a law breaker, but it's alright to break the law of illegal entry and bennifit from the hard work and taxes of law biding citizens? Sorry, that just doesn't wash with me.
Why should an "illegal" bennefit from "FREE" programs that I, as a natural born US citizen have no right to? Sorry again, but my hard earned money is used tosupport these law breakers, who continue to break the law. I don't care if they are Latino, Asian, Europian, or what ever,get their damn hands outa my pocket.
I know many fine people from many races, who are legal citizens, that help me carry the load. If we don't pay out our moneys to support the programs now tailered toillegals, WE are thelaw breakers and subject to jail or even prison. Where is the justice in that?
You just watch, and mark my words, our taxes are about to take a large upswing, and why? To pay for more governmental programs. Our government is supposed to work for us, but as it turns out, we are working for them.
I used to own my own business. 3/8 of my income went to taxes and other fees that just had other names for taxes. Another 1/8 went for legitimate business expences. Do the math, that's 50% of my gross went somewhere else. And I'm suppesed to be happy about owning my own business? Our government encourages small business, why? Look at the income we generate for 'Them".
(so they can support "illegals", and throw us a bone that is void of meat. Ex. Social Security Retirement. They spent my and your funds years ago. )
Medicare, I've got news for ya......you will still have to pay for that, no matter how old ya get. My Mother has worked hard all her life, and a full 1/3 of her retirement goes to pay for Medicare. By the way, she's 84 years old, and worked for over 70 of those years. But ya, let's giver her's and all of our money to some "illegals". We should feel sorry for them.Heck, let's just invite them right into our very homes and support their whole dang familly. After all, they have rights too.[]
GO THE F#$% HOME, AND FIX YOUR OWN HOUSE, QUIT LIVIN' IN MINE AND EXPECTIN' ME TO PAY YOUR BILLS.

I think I've pretty much covered my opinion on this subject, all I can do now is just come up with more examples, but I think ya see from where I'm commin'.
Man, ya really got me wound up on this one.

Next post, I'll change the my subject.

 

Well....My take on it is that the war has perhaps several objectives. Some may not be as noble as others but one that is meaningful for me is to give the Iraqi people the freedom of choice. Their God given right of "Free will"! That would be a huge "Victory".

As for ifit can be "won" or not. It depends on your definition of "Won". I don't think it can be "won" in the idealistic meaning of complete obliteration of undesirables but I do believe it can be "won" if the Iraqi government can become self sufficient and and strong enough to police themselves. And become a respectable and honorable participant in the global economy. They'll need to stop fighting among them selves with guns and start using words and votes. I think the biggest hurdle over there is to instill respect for human life and free choice. They need to realize that everyone has the right to choose for them selves what they want to believe, and pushing their views on others is not their "right". I don't think Islam on a whole is quite so fanatical with their hatred for "the infidels". I believe like someone said early on that the fanatics hijacked the religion. It's not something that will happen over night as they have been doing this for thousands of years. But I do think it is doable. That is why the insurgents are doing what they are doing, to create havoc and chaos and keep the government from organizing and establishing itself. They must fear this as hard as they are trying to keep it from happening. iI you notice most of their attacks are on the Iraqi people and not the coalition (US) troops.

 

Ya saved me some typing on this one Bro. I whole heartily agree.
Great post!